Wonderful! I don’t know Marot in the slightest. Thanks for the introduction.
Re English / French proximity, in the 1520s the Pale of Calais was still very much English. Wyatt was an official there for a year and also undertook diplomatic missions to the French court. I wonder if he and Marot ever met?
Great point. It's obvious how influenced Wyatt is by French poetry in general but yes, I'm not sure whether they would have met in person, it might have been slightly too early for Marot's real prominence. Someone must surely have researched it though, so perhaps someone will come along . . . I've been reading Marot pretty steadily for a few weeks now and I am very impressed.
Thanks for what was, for me, an introduction to Marot. I was astonished at how intelligible the French is, from the 1520s. The reason I was surprised is that in Geneva, where I grew up, we celebrate a victory over the neighboring Savoyards with a song that dates to 1602. The dialect of that song (a song which every schoolchild learns) seems comparatively more removed from modern French than what I see in the poem you quote. A sample: "Cé qu'è lainô, le Maitre dé bataille, / Que se moqué et se ri dé canaille, / À bin fai vi, pè on desande nai / Qu'il étivé patron dé Genevouai." The song is still sung on the occasion of the Escalade (the victory over the Savoyards) and also, it is the rallying song of the local hockey club--I wonder how many other sports club songs are still sung in a dialect from the 1600s!
I did a little internet searching about the French spoken in Geneva at that time and learned it is called arpitan genevois, "arpitan" or "arpetan" being a neologism meant to resemble the word "occitan," but referring to the dialect spoken in the alps.
In this course of this superficial sleuthing I learned a bit about the 1500s dividing line in French. If you are not familiar with it already you may find this article interesting for what it says about Marot and his concern for the French language: La Renaissance et le « vieux langage », le Parnasse français de Clément Marot by Étienne Dobenesque
Ah yes how interesting. I suppose it's because the French that Marot is using is the direct ancestor of modern French in a way that the Genevan dialect you quote isn't. Thanks for your link. On Marot and the French language, I'm aware of this quotation by Voltaire -- saying that it was Marot who introduced the rule about the past participle of avoir agreeing with any preceding direct object. I have no idea if this is true or not, or whether it's true that the practice was borrowed from Italian.
Great post. I wonder if you know Le Ton Beau de Marot by Douglas Hofstadter (yes, the Godel, Escher, Bach guy). Essays by a cognitive scientist on the art of translation linked by 88 English versions of a single 28-line Marot lyric. Long time since I read it, but I remember quite liking it.
Many thanks as ever, Victoria, for new perspectives opened up. Your slight separation from English reminded me of my daughter’s experience when giving a talk to medical colleagues back in Scotland after years working in Marseille : she wanted to say street protest or demonstration, but only the word manifestation came to mind, which she knew was wrong for UK streets.
Marot communicates so confidently and clearly across the centuries. On poetic contemporaries on the island of Britain who showed like confidence, you will be aware of Gavin Douglas (1474-1522) for his Aeneid, and slightly earlier the versatile Robert Henrysoun (1425-1506) and William Dunbar (1460-1520). These were writing across a linguistic channel, of course, where Northumbrian-derived Scots language had diverged increasingly from Southern English, but was a court language in its own right, with all the range and subtlety that this involved. Even today there are many speakers and writers in Scotland whose experience of hearing and speaking English is accompanied by a parallel soundtrack of Scots, both lexically and phonologically. It’s the South-North Occitan and Northern French turned on its head. We never go up to London or Oxford, but always down to them!
Yes it's really fascinating how different Scottish and English literary culture was at this point and throughout the 16th century -- it's noticeable in Latin as well. You're quite right that the contrast is much less marked if you look at French vs Scottish literature (rather than French vs English) and of course there are many important "Franco-Scottish" literary figures as well (like Buchanan and, a bit later, Barclay).
Wonderful poems and what a wonderful face he has--those eyebrows!
It's a great portrait isn't it? I believe it's only probably him, but I hope it is!
Wonderful! I don’t know Marot in the slightest. Thanks for the introduction.
Re English / French proximity, in the 1520s the Pale of Calais was still very much English. Wyatt was an official there for a year and also undertook diplomatic missions to the French court. I wonder if he and Marot ever met?
Great point. It's obvious how influenced Wyatt is by French poetry in general but yes, I'm not sure whether they would have met in person, it might have been slightly too early for Marot's real prominence. Someone must surely have researched it though, so perhaps someone will come along . . . I've been reading Marot pretty steadily for a few weeks now and I am very impressed.
Thanks for what was, for me, an introduction to Marot. I was astonished at how intelligible the French is, from the 1520s. The reason I was surprised is that in Geneva, where I grew up, we celebrate a victory over the neighboring Savoyards with a song that dates to 1602. The dialect of that song (a song which every schoolchild learns) seems comparatively more removed from modern French than what I see in the poem you quote. A sample: "Cé qu'è lainô, le Maitre dé bataille, / Que se moqué et se ri dé canaille, / À bin fai vi, pè on desande nai / Qu'il étivé patron dé Genevouai." The song is still sung on the occasion of the Escalade (the victory over the Savoyards) and also, it is the rallying song of the local hockey club--I wonder how many other sports club songs are still sung in a dialect from the 1600s!
I did a little internet searching about the French spoken in Geneva at that time and learned it is called arpitan genevois, "arpitan" or "arpetan" being a neologism meant to resemble the word "occitan," but referring to the dialect spoken in the alps.
In this course of this superficial sleuthing I learned a bit about the 1500s dividing line in French. If you are not familiar with it already you may find this article interesting for what it says about Marot and his concern for the French language: La Renaissance et le « vieux langage », le Parnasse français de Clément Marot by Étienne Dobenesque
https://books.openedition.org/pur/29011?lang=en.
I too like the portrait of (supposedly) Marot. He looks so young!
Ah yes how interesting. I suppose it's because the French that Marot is using is the direct ancestor of modern French in a way that the Genevan dialect you quote isn't. Thanks for your link. On Marot and the French language, I'm aware of this quotation by Voltaire -- saying that it was Marot who introduced the rule about the past participle of avoir agreeing with any preceding direct object. I have no idea if this is true or not, or whether it's true that the practice was borrowed from Italian.
https://cestmieuxsansfautes.com/2019/10/21/citation-de-voltaire-sur-clement-marot/
Thank you. Funny quote you link to!
Great post. I wonder if you know Le Ton Beau de Marot by Douglas Hofstadter (yes, the Godel, Escher, Bach guy). Essays by a cognitive scientist on the art of translation linked by 88 English versions of a single 28-line Marot lyric. Long time since I read it, but I remember quite liking it.
No but that sounds amazing! Will look it up at once. Thank you!
Enjoyed this so much!
Thank you Maria!
Many thanks as ever, Victoria, for new perspectives opened up. Your slight separation from English reminded me of my daughter’s experience when giving a talk to medical colleagues back in Scotland after years working in Marseille : she wanted to say street protest or demonstration, but only the word manifestation came to mind, which she knew was wrong for UK streets.
Marot communicates so confidently and clearly across the centuries. On poetic contemporaries on the island of Britain who showed like confidence, you will be aware of Gavin Douglas (1474-1522) for his Aeneid, and slightly earlier the versatile Robert Henrysoun (1425-1506) and William Dunbar (1460-1520). These were writing across a linguistic channel, of course, where Northumbrian-derived Scots language had diverged increasingly from Southern English, but was a court language in its own right, with all the range and subtlety that this involved. Even today there are many speakers and writers in Scotland whose experience of hearing and speaking English is accompanied by a parallel soundtrack of Scots, both lexically and phonologically. It’s the South-North Occitan and Northern French turned on its head. We never go up to London or Oxford, but always down to them!
Yes it's really fascinating how different Scottish and English literary culture was at this point and throughout the 16th century -- it's noticeable in Latin as well. You're quite right that the contrast is much less marked if you look at French vs Scottish literature (rather than French vs English) and of course there are many important "Franco-Scottish" literary figures as well (like Buchanan and, a bit later, Barclay).